Discussion about permission, credit, and making money off creations

O Ilusionista wrote:

Quote :

. I have done that as all of you know because O mentioned me not asking permission on Riddler which I deeply regret and am changing my ways.

Just to clarify, I told him to CREDIT people, not ASK FOR MY AUTHORIZATION. I have the PM saved if someone wanna read.

Oh I'm sorry I got my words mixed/missing some point, I  meant what you meant

Again I agree with BP about where the sprites came from, that it's an edit of Capcom's too so it isn't 100% from great creators sprites.

But I still want to ask permission and give credit since that's easy to do and nothing would be lost if the editors would do such.

O Ilusionista wrote:

THAT is the point. It's not hard to understand 
For example, you took some stuff from RMM Roll, credited us and its okay 

To be more clear, because I know some people have some issues understanding basic things: It's not hard to say 'Hey XXXXX, I am using your work to make this and I am crediting you". Or, at least "Contains works done by XXXX".
Its not that hard. Really.

I think Ilus. have said everything here. This is all what matters, but unfortunately even doing this things, problems still going to happen because obviously, some authors will say "I not allow you to that". But in the end its all personal from both parts. 
I dont know about you guys, but in my perception, doesnt matter at all if someone do a crap edit from a work mine I mean, its shame on him, not on me. And other way if he do something great I will be realy glad to be credited/indirectly helped with that good work.
But in the end its just my way to think. Others authors will get mad with a edit of his work credited or not, good or not good, but is up to the author of the edit publish it as it and get hated by someone(some times by the comunity) or not.

The thing is everyone 100% should do is ask for permission and credit everything used. This is the minimum respect required for everyone here. 

(Ps* if somehow happens that didnt made any that please reminder me to do)

Hi Somm

1st i must say that through this discussion i see all good greators names write here...hahaha amazing.

2nd (The thing is everyone 100% should do is ask for permission and credit everything used) I agree with u... only problem is when some (authors will say "I not allow you to that").

3rd I like edits/updates only when its to fix some issues or improve the chars(Exaple: i heve get 2-3 chars that have only basic moves...why not update them to have special & hyper!)

4th this discussion will ever end.

5th from personal experience i havent get pest responce for some updates/edits i did... so thats why never release them....and keep them for my personal use.
The 1st person who told me by his self ok for an update i did is the great Shinning.

6th and last... some of Dont Touch My Chars ctreators sure when they download an other creator's char... they touch it so fit in their game with their own creations. (Only different is that they dont release those edits... so i do the same to avoid arguments).

Forgive my english...and all be well.No bad feelings.And i do respect all opinions.

well, i think there is really no point in discussing credits. every sane person would agree that authors should be credited. i would even go as far as to say that you should NEVER edit original author name out, or even put your name in front of his, if you have done an edit. even if you believe youve done more work than the original author did. you could be entierly wrong. but even if im not credited in some edit, sure, i would be upset, but definitely wouldnt make a fuss about it. i never credit original capcom artists, or even capcom itself after all

Rage wrote:

However, I believe in asking for permission. I have been around for almost 20 years and I have seen a lot and grown a lot. back in the day, I saw the messages asking big companies for permission. So I have to ask, why is it wrong for the editor to ask for the same respect?

here. if i saw that author went as far as to ask permission from capcom artist, or at least tried to reach him through capcom, and that author would demand that i delete my supposed edit, i would do it, no question asked, no matter how much work i put in it. just out of respect that a person practices exactly what he preaches, however silly his demand may look to me. but not for those, who never tried to reach original artist and acting like they own the work. and try to dictate rules to others and accuse them of stealing, for using without authorization, when they also guilty of the same "crime"

Rage wrote:

The argument in my opinion comes down to emotion vs logic. It's like oil and water. I don't need to repeat any of the logic points as you all have made it very clear why asking or permission is silly. Emotionally is a different side and as is often the case you won't understand unless you wear those shoes.

i understand that. im also emotionally invested in my characters. sinister for example, took a lot of time to sprite. but i dont believe im allowed to forbid anyone to make an edit of him and upload it, and i wont be upset, as long as my name and dev are credited as the main authors. i never asked original artist of urien if i can edit his work

Rage wrote:

if I saw something I put years of my life into making being chopped I'd be hurt

and with all due respect, i cant really understand this. that sounds like every butchered edit replaces your original version. if your original version still online and available to people, why would you care if someone uploads a different version? if its bad, no one would prefer it over yours. if its better, than its even great, as long as you credited. shouldnt that be the case?

candido159 wrote:

O Ilusionista wrote:

Quote :

. I have done that as all of you know because O mentioned me not asking permission on Riddler which I deeply regret and am changing my ways.

Just to clarify, I told him to CREDIT people, not ASK FOR MY AUTHORIZATION. I have the PM saved if someone wanna read.

Oh I'm sorry I got my words mixed/missing some point, I  meant what you meant

Again I agree with BP about where the sprites came from, that it's an edit of Capcom's too so it isn't 100% from great creators sprites.

But I still want to ask permission and give credit since that's easy to do and nothing would be lost if the editors would do such.

guys its great that you think this is about respect. but you missing the point. its not about asking permission, i also believe in that, or, at least, i did, before i saw entitled behaviour of various authors. its about forbiding others to edit and thinking you have the right to do so. you considering that asking persmission is an automatic "yes" and just a gesture of respect

So, where does this discussion take us?

1 - We must ask the breeder for authorization, if he is active. If he is inactive and incommunicado, it is mandatory to give credit.

2 - If the breeder says "no". So do not do. The consequences of going over someone's will is not worth it. Even more so when that person has popularity. He leaves and accidentally carries others with himself, creates several orphans of his creations, which will give rise to breeders of private content or collective financing. You will not want this in your conscience.

3 - If you don't like someone's creation, don't change it. Create your own. Stop making excuses and get your hands dirty. I think it is only valid to change a character when the author is inactive or retired. And left an unfinished creation or bad coding. You can also do it for your own use, you don't have to share everything you do.

4 - Do not create toxic situations. They end up with relationships. I saw some of you talking badly about Loganir. He made Wonder Woman and Thor. Few people are able to make characters with that quality. They are being ungrateful. Spitting on the plate they ate.

My final thoughts, is that the arguments about asking permission from capcom and etc ... Fall apart. We are a fanart community. The respect must be mutual for everything to work.

BetoMC wrote:

My final thoughts, is that the arguments about asking permission from capcom and etc ... Fall apart. We are a fanart community. The respect must be mutual for everything to work.

well, why do you think it fell apart? there is not a single argument against it

if the idea of asking capcom artist for the permission to use his work looks silly to you
then the idea of asking mugen author for permission looks as equally silly to me

it does make sense as a mutual respect, but not when it comes to the point that people start to think they can make demands

It's not silly, it's just absurd.

BetoMC wrote:

It's not silly, it's just absurd.

same to me, with the idea of mugen creator thinking he can forbid someone to edit publicly available work

Quote :

well, i think there is really no point in discussing credits. every sane person would agree that authors should be credited.
i would even go as far as to say that you should NEVER edit original author name out,

Search for Mystic T.Hawk and you will understand why I am telling this...
Its basically Spec Ops Mexican Typhoon with a different color, with all my team credits and with the name of other person as the author.

So I think is far from 'every sane person'. Things like that were shared here and most people would not give a damn about it.

Quote :

i never credit original capcom artists, or even capcom itself after all

Which is wrong, by the way.

Quote :

ts about forbiding others to edit and thinking you have the right to do so. you considering that asking persmission is an automatic "yes" and just a gesture of respect

Won't be better, if you see someone won't like this, the person who wants to edit something to take their ass from the couch and make something their owns so?

Most people doesnt wants to improve something, they just want to either put their name an say LOOK MY GAME or simply break the entire character, thinking they are improving something (its what the person made with Mexican Typhoon and what some person above told about editing Loganir works, so they can't break it and then Loganir is "bad creator" lol).

People loves shortcuts.

Quote :

with the idea of mugen creator thinking he can forbid someone to edit publicly available work

so you understand/agree that some people will keep their work private and nobody can cry about it, right? I am trying to follow your logic here.

O Ilusionista wrote:

Search for Mystic T.Hawk and you will understand why I am telling this...
Its basically Spec Ops Mexican Typhoon with a different color, with all my team credits and with the name of other person as the author.

So I think is far from 'every sane person'. Things like that were shared here and most people would not give a damn about it.

not really sure, why would you bring this, since i clearly stated that im against those type of things
"sane" "not sane", doesnt matter the word, its not the right thing to do:

BigPimp wrote:

i would even go as far as to say that you should NEVER edit original author name out, or even put your name in front of his, if you have done an edit

O Ilusionista wrote:

Which is wrong, by the way.

yes, again, thats why i said i would not make a fuss about if someone does the same to me. i can own up to my mistakes (even though i think its pretty bogus, since knowledge that sprites are made by capcom is common by now. and im not editing my sprites so masterfully that base becomes unrecognizable). but yeah, its pretty good manner to credit capcom as well
it really looks that you just trying to pick some negative things here Ilu, not have the discussion about the issue, gotta be honest with you

O Ilusionista wrote:

Won't be better, if you see someone won't like this, the person who wants to edit something to take their ass from the couch and make something their owns so?

Most people doesnt wants to improve something, they just want to either put their name an say LOOK MY GAME or simply break the entire character, thinking they are improving something (its what the person made with Mexican Typhoon and what some person above told about editing Loganir works, so they can't break it and then Loganir is "bad creator" lol).

sure, but again, many times i said that im against credit replacement. that seems to be your main argument, where im not in disagreement here

Quote :

so you understand/agree that some people will keep their work private and nobody can cry about it, right? I am trying to follow your logic here.

absolutely. person can keep their work private even if he/she doesnt feel that he was wronged by anybody. he can do it, just because he feels like it
i dont think its the right attidude in any scenario, but to each his own, i wouldnt make a problem or even comment to the person about it
when it comes to blaiming community for it, or trying to enforce some "rules", thats what i have problem with

if you failing to follow my logic, you need to re-read the posts, Ilu, i dont have any issue with things you presenting as arguments here

Quote :

it really looks that you just trying to pick some negative things here Ilu, not have the discussion about the issue, gotta be honest with you

Not at all, buddy. Outside my posts and some very close friends posts, I do not reply in any other topic here so I won't even waste my time trying to bring any negativity.
I was just trying to understand your logic...

Quote :

absolutely. person can keep their work private even if he/she doesnt feel that he was wronged by anybody. he can do it, just because he feels like it

...which I got here. I even agree with you on this. I've made some points above trying to understand your point, because I think it was kinda illogic to bring a "once its online, you can't control / you had no authorization" at same time bringing "people going private is wrong".

Now I get it.
Thanks.

O Ilusionista wrote:

Quote :

it really looks that you just trying to pick some negative things here Ilu, not have the discussion about the issue, gotta be honest with you

Not at all, buddy. Outside my posts and some very close friends posts, I do not reply in any other topic here so I won't even waste my time trying to bring any negativity.
I was jus trying to understand your logic...

Quote :

absolutely. person can keep their work private even if he/she doesnt feel that he was wronged by anybody. he can do it, just because he feels like it

...which I got here. I even agree with you on this. I've made some points above trying to understand your point, because I think it was kinda illogic to bring a "once its online, you can't control / you had no authorization" at same time bringing "people going private is wrong".

Now I get it.
Thanks.

great. glad you still the rational person i always thought you were
i understand there are people who along with my position, would usually say that authors cant keep work private, and also that crediting is not important
im not in the same boat. i just not in yours either (if i understood your position correctly)

I just hate it when private creators post videos and show off things and then tell us no your not getting it none of you are because we made it you don't deserve to play it

Longnair Thor was an edit of capcom Thor helper character so again don't try to claim ownership on something you have no right to own

And BP I edited your sinister just the specials attack pal just made them pinker with some purple for my own use just letting you know lol but again it's that easy to talk to a creator to let them know now honestly I didn't have to because it's personal use but that's also how I'd go about asking if he was OK with me releasing this edit my name wouldn't replace anything because its jus a pal edit not sprites or code but with my sprite swaps that I have done you can see that all the credit goes to who made the original and my name is last it's that easy to credit people

crosspotts1.0 wrote:

I just hate it when private creators post videos and show off things and then tell us no your not getting it none of you are because we made it you don't deserve to play it

Longnair Thor was an edit of capcom Thor helper character so again don't try to claim ownership on something you have no right to own

well, again, its every creators choice to not release something, Cross. purposely showing it off and teasing may be a mean thing to do, but you also dont have any right to harass the author

crosspotts1.0 wrote:

And BP I edited your sinister just the specials attack pal just made them pinker with some purple for my own use just letting you know lol but again it's that easy to talk to a creator to let them know now honestly I didn't have to because it's personal use but that's also how I'd go about asking if he was OK with me releasing this edit my name wouldn't replace anything because its jus a pal edit not sprites or code but with my sprite swaps that I have done you can see that all the credit goes to who made the original and my name is last it's that easy to credit people

its fine, you can upload it, if you want people to have it
on the credits side though, again, replacing original author's name, or putting your name in front should not be done, even if there are sprites or code edited
as well as adding your name at the end, as the "author" of the character, unless there is some really substantial work done (new moves, etc)
you can credit yourself in readme, just clarify, what exactly been done (but then again, you can do whatever you want, thats just my advice on how it should be done properly and respectfully)

Thanks BP.

Quote :

well, again, its every creators choice to not release something, Cross. purposely showing it off and teasing may be a mean thing to do, but you also dont have any right to harass the author

This.

And I decided to turn some of my works "private" too - some will be share only with some closer friends, some will remain only with me.