Discussion about permission, credit, and making money off creations

I since 2000 in MUGEN, I see times for fun but this change because some creators they wanted money, They created things using sprites based on a Capcom character, Snk etc and they were offended if someone edited their creation (something paradoxical since they edited)...sorry my bad english but I remember this: MUGEN IS A HOBBY...if you are great creator of sprites, need money, going to SNK,SEGA or other and please got a job.

candido159 we agree.But to some mugen creators even if u as asking permission just for respect... they dont give u asking permission.Then problems start.I have see it many years now.I start with mugen 2013.So maybe u got the meaning of hobby but not all do.

I havent been active in discussions all those years just to avoid all these things.

Instead use our energy with agree or disagree... we could go mugen chars in an other level for all of us.


And a vote to yolomate:
(I since 2000 in MUGEN, I see times for fun but this change because some creators they wanted money, They created things using sprites based on a Capcom character, Snk etc and they were offended if someone edited their creation (something paradoxical since they edited)...sorry my bad english but I remember this: MUGEN IS A HOBBY...if you are great creator of sprites, need money, going to SNK,SEGA or other and please got a job.)

candido159 wrote:

Yes it doesn't belong to them but if one would make them from scratch, it's like drawing a fan drawing, 100% your drawing but not your character. In that case at least the term "don't edit my sprites" can be said that it is totally his sprites and no edit was made or body based from capcom's characters.
Yet again creators can't do a thing if the characters they release are edited since it's public, that's why I mentioned that the ones who edit should atleast give respect by asking permission. I have done that as all of you know because O mentioned me not asking permission on Riddler which I deeply regret and am changing my ways.

i can understand your point about painted from scratch character. but all characters we are talking about are made from capcom sprites
and asking permission then must imply that they can deny it, otherwise its a meaningless step
and denying persmisson returns us back to the same point of authors forbiding others to edit stuff

did they ask permission from capcom or marvel? from those artist who sprited capcom characters in the first place? no? why not? were they worried they get denied, or they thought they are doing something illegal in the first place? or they just think they dont need to bother to do it? if they didnt bother asking original capcom artists, who, believe me, spent much more time doing original sprites, to edit their stuff, why would i need to ask them for any kind of premission? its just an overblown ego, nothing more

i personally would rather not see those wips muganized or released and stick by those principles, than have such bullies think they can impose their will on others or dictate rules for the community, where they have no right to do so

Hi BigPimp... u did say it with right words and good english that i couldnt.
But right and nice is if someone do an edit will be nice and respect and credit the mugen creator that make this char.

BigPimp wrote:

candido159 wrote:

Yes it doesn't belong to them but if one would make them from scratch, it's like drawing a fan drawing, 100% your drawing but not your character. In that case at least the term "don't edit my sprites" can be said that it is totally his sprites and no edit was made or body based from capcom's characters.
Yet again creators can't do a thing if the characters they release are edited since it's public, that's why I mentioned that the ones who edit should atleast give respect by asking permission. I have done that as all of you know because O mentioned me not asking permission on Riddler which I deeply regret and am changing my ways.

i can understand your point about painted from scratch character. but all characters we are talking about are made from capcom sprites
and asking permission then must imply that they can deny it, otherwise its a meaningless step
and denying persmisson returns us back to the same point of authors forbiding others to edit stuff

did they ask permission from capcom or marvel? from those artist who sprited capcom characters in the first place? no? why not? were they worried they get denied, or they thought they are doing something illegal in the first place? or they just think they dont need to bother to do it? if they didnt bother asking original capcom artists, who, believe me, spent much more time doing original sprites, to edit their stuff, why would i need to ask them for any kind of premission? its just an overblown ego, nothing more

i personally would rather not see those wips muganized or released and stick by those principles, than have such bullies think they can impose their will on others or dictate rules for the community, where they have no right to do so

I see, well I do agree with your point in everything but I'd still contact them if they're still active, this way we could have more communications and more communications meaning growth in community, for me at least

a exemple of bad guy creator(excellent creator but...):Loganir says "hey dont edit my chars!! I working no touch no no no!!!".
That is incredible!!! a Bane(Batman foe)the character based on his "Abubo Rao" (Bane's main edit base) and created a Bane!!!! "members:no edit my chars but I edit others chars because that chars are SNK or other company"...he edit but you not!!!incredible!!!

candido159 wrote:

I see, well I do agree with your point in everything but I'd still contact them if they're still active, this way we could have more communications and more communications meaning growth in community, for me at least

yeah, man, sure. its just the hypocrisy i cant stand. those creators seem to skip the rule when its inconvenient, but try to enforce it when it benefits them. i think they all forgot we are all doing all our "projects" on illegaly ripped work of other artists

and back in the day i did ask, as a general rule, but from seeing the general response of those guys accusing people of stealing, or putting ultimatums, even when they fully credited, i just dont see the reason to bother anymore

yolomate wrote:

a exemple of bad guy creator(excellent creator but...):Loganir says "hey dont edit my chars!! I working no touch no no no!!!".
That is incredible!!! a Bane(Batman foe)the character based on his "Abubo Rao" (Bane's main edit base) and created a Bane!!!! "members:no edit my chars but I edit others chars because that chars are SNK or other company"...he edit but you not!!!incredible!!!

it pains me to hear Loganir was one of the people. that guy and his works was pretty much the reason i started doing something in mugen myself

ps. also its not like im making a fuss because i want to break the "rules" and start massively edit characters or anything. i pretty much done and released everything i wanted/had in this mugen community. just voicing my opinion on hypocrisy and egomania thats going on
(only thing i still have is Camo's Beast and i gave it to him to release, and Project X screenpack. but those 2 things have some work that i got from private forums, so obviously, despite my views on free mugen, i stand by that no one should release stuff that wasnt made publicly available, without premission from the authors. just a good example where mandatory premission does make sense)

I have been around since 2003 and currently work in Mugen. I usually don't visit other places outside my home IMT. Here is a simple truth.

Once you post something on the net it no longer is yours.

However, I believe in asking for permission. I have been around for almost 20 years and I have seen a lot and grown a lot. back in the day, I saw the messages asking big companies for permission. So I have to ask, why is it wrong for the editor to ask for the same respect?

Most people don't know I'm still active in Mugen or if they do they do not know what I do. My work isn't private but I am because of how people don't respect spriters and coders' work. I been around and heard all the arguments and to be honest I shouldn't even be posting this. No side is wrong in their thoughts on the subject.

The argument in my opinion comes down to emotion vs logic. It's like oil and water. I don't need to repeat any of the logic points as you all have made it very clear why asking or permission is silly. Emotionally is a different side and as is often the case you won't understand unless you wear those shoes.

With 20 years of doing this it is known the risk but how am I wrong for taking this seriously? If you push to be the best at anything it requires you to become emotionally invested. The good characters take time, I mean like years. That is time you won't get back. That's your life. You are putting your life on paper. You may start out thinking this is just a hobby and it always will be but at some point, it becomes a hobby and more. Your time, your energy, your place in life. Over these two decades, many things have happened to me good and bad. They all ended up on paper. It's my life story. How can you not be hurt where you bear your heart to the world and it spits back?

No one is getting paid to do Mugen, so if money isn't a driving factor then emotion, passion is. So you have to care, you got to take some part seriously. Logically it silly but the heart is silly and we are human and should try to respect each other. Art is a medium driven by the heart. This is why you should be open to how people feel about their work. I guess technically if you wanna see it this way respect is a form of compensation lol.

I think that unless you make characters or are old enough you could relate to this sentiment. Since I feel this way about things  I do not work with the open community.  if I saw something I put years of my life into making being chopped I'd be hurt. I missed the old days when I wasn't this invested but I act as I do now because I would end up arguing and fighting with people because of opposite forces that hardly ever agree. I would quit/ discouraged like names brought up in this discussion. (nothing is wrong with their decision)

My hat in the ring will always be this:

MUGEN is open source and should be for everyone.

If you don’t want people touching your stuff, if you wanna brag that people can’t play with it... that is the sign of a bloated yet fragile ego.

I’ve seen people show off private stuff and brag about how folks will never get to play with it and it’s just so unnecessarily rude and somehow folks like that get defended!

God, I know egotistical people are everywhere in the world but sometimes it feels like MUGEN communities are the hive minds of egos... so many great people but so many douchebags too.

At the end of the day you’re entitled to keep your stuff to yourself if you want.

But you should also at least be a little respectful to others too — This is a community about coming together and sharing a love of fighting games. Not showing off just so you can feel better about yourself.

Now I’ll be honest, I’ve got my own ego. I pride myself on making MVC style characters cause it’s my favorite style. I sure as hell would feel a little peeved if the following scenario happens:

I work super hard on a character and release it to minimal fanfare, only for someone to come along and edit that character into, say, POTS style and they get all the praise.

I support people creating whatever they want but my emotional investment would of course leave me feeling bitter about that. I can understand why people may be afraid of that — of their hard work being ignored like that or someone else’s edit taking all the credit.

It’s why every time I make something I credit anyone involved. I’d rather folks know who was responsible for the journey there.

I really think that at the end of the day Mugen is too ego driven. And I should know. My ego is in the ring too...

If you want to make money on Mugen, the best way is to open your own YouTube channel or personal website where you will post news about the project. But there is a caveat... you can't just post a video of the project and write that it is for personal use or a narrow audience. Interest in your projects will quickly fade, since the main thing users want is to download new content. Senseless videos with private characters will not give the desired result. Therefore, you will have to share your work at some point. Otherwise... it is impossible to protect content from unscrupulous users. But this applies to everything, not only MUGEN.

Therefore, it is not possible to SELL characters or ARENAS. But you can use them to promote other content. This is a good deal.

I know I will pretty much regret to reply, but...

Quote :

did they ask permission from capcom or marvel?

20+ years hearing this argument and counting

yolomate wrote:

a exemple of bad guy creator(excellent creator but...):Loganir says "hey dont edit my chars!! I working no touch no no no!!!".
That is incredible!!! a Bane(Batman foe)the character based on his "Abubo Rao" (Bane's main edit base) and created a Bane!!!! "members:no edit my chars but I edit others chars because that chars are SNK or other company"...he edit but you not!!!incredible!!!

This is the kind of user/post/attitude which made him left and, last time I talked with him, he had no plans to return. And I am glad that my friend won't return, because the community doesn't deserve him.
But its useless to further explain my point on this case.

Quote :

. I have done that as all of you know because O mentioned me not asking permission on Riddler which I deeply regret and am changing my ways.

Just to clarify, I told him to CREDIT people, not ASK FOR MY AUTHORIZATION. I have the PM saved if someone wanna read.
This links to the reply bellow to further explain my point...

Quote :

It’s why every time I make something I credit anyone involved. I’d rather folks know who was responsible for the journey there.

THAT is the point. It's not hard to understand
For example, you took some stuff from RMM Roll, credited us and its okay

To be more clear, because I know some people have some issues understanding basic things: It's not hard to say 'Hey XXXXX, I am using your work to make this and I am crediting you". Or, at least "Contains works done by XXXX".
Its not that hard. Really.

Quote :

I work super hard on a character and release it to minimal fanfare, only for someone to come along and edit that character into, say, POTS style and they get all the praise.

I support people creating whatever they want but my emotional investment would of course leave me feeling bitter about that. I can understand why people may be afraid of that — of their hard work being ignored like that or someone else’s edit taking all the credit.

Bingo.

Quote :

I’ve seen people show off private stuff and brag about how folks will never get to play with it and it’s just so unnecessarily rude and somehow folks like that get defended!

I don't have any problems with people doing private work and showing. They aren't obligated to release anything.

What I really don't understand is how people that take a work done by someone, remove all the credits, release as it was made by him/her are still defended by someone with a minimum of common sense.
That happens a lot.

But this will bring us back to the comparison of some users with drug addicts and we won't get nowhere. So, in the end, people are free to do whatever they think they can: either taking works from other person or either simply not releasing their works to public.

Hell when I make edits my name is last after the original creators some times faded sometime bold but last nonetheless it's respect for those who came before me

crosspotts1.0 wrote:

Hell when I make edits my name is last after the original creators some times faded sometime bold but last nonetheless it's respect for those who came before me

See that little actions like this makes the difference? For example, when I code something done by an Spriter, my name ALWAYS comes after the spriter name. Its matter of respect.

It's all about respect or empathy in the end. But I've learn that some people have it, and some people not. Its how human being is.

I think as Rage said yet, mugen is not only hobby, it s passion... Some of us get a lot of time, years, to realize their creations...but mugen doesn't have to become more important than real life otherwise it become like a drug... And sure, it's frustrating to see our creation edited and completely upset(stoling the credits)
.. But people who get angry about this and leave mugen lost the main way: the real life... Real life hit harder than mugen " thieves"... there are more unrespectable people in real life and it happens serious things in real life
So in real life we must fight every day for our emotions and for our passions...to abandon our passion is not solution...and it s senseless not publish the creations because Mugen is outlet of our creativity
I hope the old guys had left mugen come back to continue their productions with the knowledge to keep real life on main way
And in this forum, we DO NOT ALLOW THE PAYMENT for mugen creations
Having respect for all wee have rules and if someone stole credits you can call admins

Have fun with this beautiful passion called mugen

I agree that:


* The author of the character must have the credits and have will/request
respected.


* If I want to pay / donate someone to code / draw, I see no problem.
This was the case with the Billy Blue Ranger (Power Ranger) sprites. They were commissioned.
For that reason alone, we now have the opportunity to code it.



But one thing is a fact:

Much of the community respects and gives credit.

However, the greater the requirements, the more fragile it becomes:
For example, in 5 years 10,000 people have downloaded the character "x".

If at least one disrespects the creator, it violated his will/request. With that the creator gets hurt / revolted. Which is understandable. However, the whole community is "punished" for the attitude of a few...

Which I don't think is fair ... but the creator is not obliged to agree. No one is.




Imagine you being able to make a dr. ock as verz. Sandman like Loganir.

It's your work of art and it's understandable that you don't want edits.
This is just a vision.

There are talented people who don't mind edits, as long as they get credits (which hurts less if violated). This is another view that is not wrong too.


That is why he said that the creator's vision must be respected.


But as I said, because of a few, the whole community is punished ... even if the majority respect it.