What should be consider a new character or an update?

well, its been so far some discussions about what a new character is. what makes it different from an update.

in this case lets take electro and i want to hear what you guys think.. for those that compared it to the old version, what do you think and why. is he a new character to you or is he an update, its the debate that i want to hear about..

somethings to consider here, are all ryus and kens updates from others because they share same sprites?
are the different supermans released by different people with different play styles just an update to the others?
same goes for many more, the dooms like the one by mr. infinite? is that an update because it has the same capcom sprites or a new character? there are so many other samples too

for those that dont know, electro was coded from scratch. all the specials are different, hypers are different, intros and win poses are different. the voice is different. even some of the basics are different. the fx are different. the sprites that were used from before were reworked a lot with shading and even custom has more things now.. so lets hear what makes a new character or an update to you.

He's called "Electro Recharged" which already puts him in the "update" category for me.
Also, same author (you) is also an "update" indicator for me.

The hypers are new, but a few of the specials are similar or at least related. (Turning into electricity and traveling through the opponent, etc.)  Some of the basics are the same, yet different. The heavy kick animation is the same, but upgraded.  A few jumping and crouching animations are the same, in a way. In my opinion I would say "update" but a heavy HEAVY remixed and edited upGRADED update.

I can still tell the two are related.

verz36 wrote:

somethings to consider here, are all ryus and kens updates from others because they share same sprites?
are the different supermans released by different people with different play styles just an update to the others?
same goes for many more, the dooms like the one by mr. infinite? is that an update because it has the same capcom sprites or a new character? there are so many other samples too

Capcom is the original creator of Ryu/Ken.  So if someone else took them and upgraded them, that's an update. If Capcom does it themself, it's an update.  Why?  Because both groups are working from the same EXISTING source material.  Some of the MOVES may be new, but mostly people just build on EXISTING material.

Once you release something ONCE, I consider that the standard publish. Now it EXISTS. It's an original version.
If you improve on that EXISTING original version and RE-release as a NEW version, that to me, is an update.

So yes, other people's versions of Capcom's ORIGINAL version are what I call updates...  Not every update is an UPGRADE, but it's a recreation of an original EXISTING version.  Sometimes they are DE-graded, but that's an update.  Think of characters that have been "nerfed" in an "update".  Didn't make them better, but they were modified at a more current time. That's what DATE means.  A change in time, not quality.

I understand that Electro had a lot done from scratch, but he was published in 2007 and then RE-published in 2014. and labelled RE-charged. It's those two RE's that make it an update. You didn't completely throw that 2007 Electro away and restart from scratch again.  You did a lot more work to it, but you built off that existing 2007 version.  

That's my opinion.

Chimoru wrote:

verz36 wrote:

somethings to consider here, are all ryus and kens updates from others because they share same sprites?
are the different supermans released by different people with different play styles just an update to the others?
same goes for many more, the dooms like the one by mr. infinite? is that an update because it has the same capcom sprites or a new character? there are so many other samples too

Capcom is the original creator of Ryu/Ken.  So if someone else took them and upgraded them, that's an update. If Capcom does it themself, it's an update.  Why?  Because both groups are working from the same EXISTING source material.  Some of the MOVES may be new, but mostly people just build on EXISTING material.

Once you release something ONCE, I consider that the standard publish. Now it EXISTS. It's an original version.
If you improve on that EXISTING original version and RE-release as a NEW version, that to me, is an update.

So yes, other people's versions of Capcom's ORIGINAL version are what I call updates...  Not every update is an UPGRADE, but it's a recreation of an original EXISTING version.  Sometimes they are DE-graded, but that's an update.  Think of characters that have been "nerfed" in an "update".  Didn't make them better, but they were modified at a more current time. That's what DATE means.  A change in time, not quality.

I understand that Electro had a lot done from scratch, but he was published in 2007 and then RE-published in 2014. and labelled RE-charged. It's those two RE's that make it an update. You didn't completely throw that 2007 Electro away and restart from scratch again.  You did a lot more work to it, but you built off that existing 2007 version.  

That's my opinion.

so in your case, having a new gameplay and new code from scratch does not make electro a new version?

let me ask you about infinte doom, what do you think of that. new or update?
the deadpool he also did, new or update?

sean altly superman, update or new?

what i consider update i guess i look at it different. even if i worked on the one before. i consider an update just adding things to a character already made. like you add some intros and win poses, change few things but you still leave the codes and gameplay intact. with electro, he has to shoot electricity or else what else can we do with him.. but even this was changed from the sprites that we used for this specials to the fx too. the recharged was just something we felt was cool to say, it does not indicate we meant to do an update. i be honest, at first that was my intention to just do an update but later it was talked about changing most of it and working in a total new version.. which after all the work involved i have to say to me its a total new character..

you will see many characters that will be the same character but not the same in terms of sprites, gameplay and other things. think about nightwing for example, jmax and ilu are working on one and i been working on another one.. so when they get release, will one be and update to the other one? even if we both would be using same base which is not the sace, it still would be 2 different characters. the ideas and gameplay and many more things that will make them different..

thank you for your reply about this topic..

I think electro has not been updated, it was completely redesigned, as demolishing a house and rebuild again.

  I think I heard about the infinite, I follow it from the beginning of his career in mugen, his editions has its own style, it's like he took a car any and equip to become more powerful, fast and beautiful, then your edits can be compared with a conversion to an own style.

Regarding super men, there is no so complete, when done by Hannibal and updated by scruffy team, others are still embryos, I'm doing a superman from scratch, I'm not doing it to please or compare to other, I think he will be different from the other ones, I do not mean to be better or worse, but it will be different.

if instead of being verz the creator of this new electro would have been another creator would not have any problem saying that it is an entirely new char, but since they are from the same creator (more loganir) tend to think it's an update, what which I do not agree; new sprites, new effects, new sounds, new codes, ultimately is a new electro char.

si en vez de ser verz el creador de este nuevo electro hubiera sido otro creador no habria ningun problema en decir que es un char totalmente nuevo,pero como son del mismo creador (mas loganir) se tiende a pensar que es una actualizacion,de lo cual no estoy deacuerdo; nuevos sprites,nuevos efectos,nuevos sonidos,nuevos codigos ,en definitiva es un nuevo char de electro.

wow, thanks for the replies guys.. please keep them coming.. i did open this topic on the 3 sites i visit the most and see what everyone thinks.

I feel like if the old one is still up and downloadable you have to class it as a new character lol. especially in the case of doom or electro where you have such an extreme overhaul.

well i consider electro totally a new char, because is all new, new special moves, new hypers new basics, everithing, great sounds and gameplay, so for me is a new char

thepaniqd wrote:

I feel like if the old one is still up and downloadable you have to class it as a new character lol. especially in the case of doom or electro where you have such an extreme overhaul.

My Jubilee got an extreme overhaul, but I still consider her to be an update of Intensity's and his original version is still available.

"Update" is not a dirty word.  No matter what she is, I'm proud of her.

I absolutely have no problem with all kinds of updates -- be it M$ Windows, Linux, Mac, MAME, QQ, FireFox, WinZip, WhatsApp,......etc.......as my old math. tutor once told me, "all computer software is beta". 

With MUGEN stuff, for example a MUGEN character, as long as the character name stays the same, any changes done and/or to-be-done later/in the future, I consider that an update.  BUT!  the only condition is the, it is by the same MUGEN creator(s)/author(s).  To put it simple, same character name by same creator/author = update.  So, if Electro was picked up by different MUGEN creator(s)/author(s) then I would consider that a new MUGEN character, even with something like the line [Info] author = "Loganir & Verz36" ;edited/updated by XYZ.  As a result, to me, the MUGEN character name and the MUGEN creator(s)/author(s) determine such consideration.

For example, no matter how many changes (sprite replacement, sound addition, more moves, more bug fix, optional game play system,...etc.) I will make to my "Custom_TRF2_Beatrice" some day, it shall still be considered an update to her.  But if someone else takes my "Custom_TRF2_Beatrice" to make his/her/its version, then it shall be considered a new make.

Labeling things seems to be important to me LOL!